195 replies to this topic

[BlackWidow]

As requested: TL;DR - Putting time delay for energy and ballistic to converge will eliminate need for stupid heat modifier penalty and stupid forced chainfire "de-sync" nonsense.

************************************************************************************************************************

PGI, in their infinite wisdom of all things balanced </sarcasm off> is now saying that 2xPPC+Gauss will be "de-synced" to prevent simultaneous firing.

I just...I....don't even know where to begin. There is one month left before official launch. ONE.

And the game will be a anemic skeleton of what was promised and what should have been. I understand many MANY dev cycles were lost fixing HUD and hit box issues. And yet hit box issues still exist to a disturbing level.

Maps and Mechs (in spite of some big gaps) have been coming out nicely. And I understand those teams are completely separate from devs coding game mechanics etc. So no complaints there. But, for the love of all that is holy why are we mired in yet another cycle of development tying to bandaid issues instead of fixing them?

I'm not a game developer. Nor am I an expert on "All Things Mechwarrior". But, I do have over 25 years of experience as both a Battletech and computer game player.

IMHO, *all* of the weapon balance issues come down to three words:

(continued)

Edited by BlackWidow, 13 August 2013 - 10:10 AM.

[BlackWidow]

INSTANT. PINPOINT. ALPHA-STRIKE.
That's it, in a nutshell. Take away any one of those legs and the table collapses. So which one does PGI decide to remove? Alpha strike. And in doing so, completely removes no only a core mechanic of Mechwarrior, but negates much of the other work they have spent months putting into place.

Examples:

Mech variants - Why have variety when you limit what you can actually do with it?

Hardpoints - This is the ONE key component that made MWO different from ALL previous titles. Some loved it, some hated it but it was designed to provide diversity between the mech chassis' and variants and limit the "CHEESE". I personally like the system

Weapon Balance - Why, why, why would you spend months tweaking weapon balance over and over again only to make it completely useless in favor of INSANE heat penalty multipliers and FORCING chain fire with "weapon de-syncing"?

Ok. I get it. No one liked jump snipers or 60 point head shots for instant death. That is no fun for anyone. But, alpha strikes SHOULD be allowed in the game. They just can't be the primary mechanism. And they became so. So, instead of fixing what allowed for that, they just removed them from the game altogether.

So, in my infinite wisdom </sarcasm off> what do I suggest? Well, leave the hardpoints in place, work on weapon tweaking and leave alpha strikes in place. So what does that leave?

INSTANT and PINPOINT. Now, this is easy to pare down. We can't remove PINPOINT. This is an FPS sim. (please no 3PV comments needed) By no means would I ever suggest to copy the RNG hit functions from Table Top into a skill based game. Just silly. We should be able to hit what we properly aim at.

(continued)

Edited by BlackWidow, 13 August 2013 - 10:05 AM.

[BlackWidow]

So all that is left is the INSTANT part. The funny thing is...this should be the solution not because it's the only one that would not break core game mechanics...but it's the SIMPLEST of all the solutions!
LRMs and Streaks need time to "lock on" No one even questions this even though there is no such mechanic in tabletop or previous Mechwarrior titles (could be wrong. please correct me if so).

So why not have a convergence time for enery and balistic weapons as well?

I mean is it unreasonable to think that if I am firing on a mech 100m away and switch targets to one 750m away that it would take a few scant slivers of time before all my arm and torso weapons converge to the same spot? Hell, it takes my digital camera at least a second just to focus when I change the range.

So, not only would this curtail alpha strikes, it would virtually eliminate jump sniping without breaking the rest of the game. Sure, you can still alpha strike, but unless you wait for the reticle to converge, you don't hit all weapons in one spot. And jump snipers? But the time your weapons converge to that sexy sweet spot you love to cheese with....you are already out of jump juice and on your way back down. So, it doesn't limit how you choose to play your mech, but it DOES limit how much damage you can do to ONE PIXEL of space instantly. It still allows for quick alpha strikes (non-pinpoint) and still does allow for point point selection but not instantly.

Where is the downside to this?

There have been many other threads with suggestions about weapon firing cones, or modified target reticles, or limiting how much a weapon can converge (beyond the torso and arm limits). Those all seem good, but also prevent players from utilizing a key mechanic in a FPS game. To hit where you aim.
I'm not suggesting that. I'm simply suggesting a time buffer to prevent instant pinpoint alphastikes from being the main mechanic.

Thanks for reading.

/Peace out

Edited by BlackWidow, 13 August 2013 - 10:06 AM.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

Give us a TL;DR, guarantee you'll get more bites

[BlackWidow]

AntiCitizenJuan, on 13 August 2013 - 10:07 AM, said:

Give us a TL;DR, guarantee you'll get more bites

Added. Thanks.

[Homeless Bill]

BlackWidow, on 13 August 2013 - 09:50 AM, said:

Putting time delay for energy and ballistic to converge will eliminate need for stupid heat modifier penalty and stupid forced chainfire "de-sync" nonsense.

They've already said technical limitations prevent any sort of convergence based on target tracking for the time being. Imagine the current HSR ******** but with convergence.

Though I think convergence is ultimately the correct solution, slow convergence based on target tracking isn't happening. Unless you're going to do it based on lock, which doesn't really solve the problem.

[Sprouticus]

BlackWidow, on 13 August 2013 - 10:04 AM, said:

So all that is left is the INSTANT part. The funny thing is...this should be the solution not because it's the only one that would not break core game mechanics...but it's the SIMPLEST of all the solutions!
LRMs and Streaks need time to "lock on" No one even questions this even though there is no such mechanic in tabletop or previous Mechwarrior titles (could be wrong. please correct me if so).

So why not have a convergence time for enery and balistic weapons as well?

I mean is it unreasonable to think that if I am firing on a mech 100m away and switch targets to one 750m away that it would take a few scant slivers of time before all my arm and torso weapons converge to the same spot? Hell, it takes my digital camera at least a second just to focus when I change the range.

So, not only would this curtail alpha strikes, it would virtually eliminate jump sniping without breaking the rest of the game. Sure, you can still alpha strike, but unless you wait for the reticle to converge, you don't hit all weapons in one spot. And jump snipers? But the time your weapons converge to that sexy sweet spot you love to cheese with....you are already out of jump juice and on your way back down. So, it doesn't limit how you choose to play your mech, but it DOES limit how much damage you can do to ONE PIXEL of space instantly. It still allows for quick alpha strikes (non-pinpoint) and still does allow for point point selection but not instantly.

Where is the downside to this?

There have been many other threads with suggestions about weapon firing cones, or modified target reticles, or limiting how much a weapon can converge (beyond the torso and arm limits). Those all seem good, but also prevent players from utilizing a key mechanic in a FPS game. To hit where you aim.
I'm not suggesting that. I'm simply suggesting a time buffer to prevent instant pinpoint alphastikes from being the main mechanic.

Thanks for reading.

/Peace out

you angry bro?

Seriously, you are reacting to a system we DONT EVEN HAVE DETAILS ON.


Maybe it will be as kludgy as the heat system (which I dont hate but think it not very elegant or intuitive), maybe it will be better. Instead of going off half cocked, why dont you want and see?

Edited by Sprouticus, 13 August 2013 - 10:25 AM.

[BlackWidow]

Sprouticus, on 13 August 2013 - 10:23 AM, said:

you angry bro?

Are you 12 years old, bro? Only people that say that are losers and posers on forums.

But, I'm always hungry for some troll bait. So, I'll bite.

No, not angry. Not even coming off as angry. I'm simply bewildered and frustrated by the countless dev cycles being wasted on trying to bandaid a solution they have created.

So, I put forth a suggestion with reasoned points to support it.

What did you do? You opened your mouth and took a crap.

But, I expect nothing less from you.

[Taemien]

BlackWidow, on 13 August 2013 - 09:57 AM, said:

INSTANT. PINPOINT. ALPHA-STRIKE.
That's it, in a nutshell. Take away any one of those legs and the table collapses. So which one does PGI decide to remove? Alpha strike. And in doing so, completely removes no only a core mechanic of Mechwarrior, but negates much of the other work they have spent months putting into place.

Alpha strike is not being removed from the game. You can still load up all weapons into a single firing group, get up in someone's face and ruin their day. Its supposed to be a last ditch effort to destroy an opponent.

It was never meant to be done over and over and over. This is an abuse of customized mechs that translated from TT, which is also why I limit my games in TT to be stock only.

So they are just hurting boating builds. Which with the hardpoint system, are gimped builds anyway. It forces players to configure their mechs and play in a smarter way. And because mechs will be of more mixed loadouts, there won't be any cookie cutter builds, or at least a reduction in their must have quality.

BlackWidow, on 13 August 2013 - 10:04 AM, said:

So all that is left is the INSTANT part. The funny thing is...this should be the solution not because it's the only one that would not break core game mechanics...but it's the SIMPLEST of all the solutions!
LRMs and Streaks need time to "lock on" No one even questions this even though there is no such mechanic in tabletop or previous Mechwarrior titles (could be wrong. please correct me if so).

So why not have a convergence time for enery and balistic weapons as well?

I mean is it unreasonable to think that if I am firing on a mech 100m away and switch targets to one 750m away that it would take a few scant slivers of time before all my arm and torso weapons converge to the same spot? Hell, it takes my digital camera at least a second just to focus when I change the range.

So, not only would this curtail alpha strikes, it would virtually eliminate jump sniping without breaking the rest of the game. Sure, you can still alpha strike, but unless you wait for the reticle to converge, you don't hit all weapons in one spot. And jump snipers? But the time your weapons converge to that sexy sweet spot you love to cheese with....you are already out of jump juice and on your way back down. So, it doesn't limit how you choose to play your mech, but it DOES limit how much damage you can do to ONE PIXEL of space instantly. It still allows for quick alpha strikes (non-pinpoint) and still does allow for point point selection but not instantly.

Where is the downside to this?

There have been many other threads with suggestions about weapon firing cones, or modified target reticles, or limiting how much a weapon can converge (beyond the torso and arm limits). Those all seem good, but also prevent players from utilizing a key mechanic in a FPS game. To hit where you aim.
I'm not suggesting that. I'm simply suggesting a time buffer to prevent instant pinpoint alphastikes from being the main mechanic.

Thanks for reading.

/Peace out

Convergence isn't possible. Read the other QnAs. Hit detection is done via the server. Hit detection with convergence (a relatively unpredictable thing by the server to client and vice versa) causes unpredictable desynchs and a myriad of other issues (blame CryEngine netcode if you want to blame something). They may be able to remedy this, but it would take an overhaul of the entire system, an overhaul they just don't have time to do.

In otherwords don't hold your breath for this in MWO. Perhaps MW5 or MW6 will have it. What we have for convergence is what is here to stay. We'll probably see LAMs, Quads, and HAGs before convergence changes. By then we'll be playing MW7.

[Rasako]

this is just an all-time low of manchildish behavior, when are you people just going to grow the hell up?

[BlackWidow]

Sprouticus, on 13 August 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

you angry bro?

Seriously, you are reacting to a system we DONT EVEN HAVE DETAILS ON.


Maybe it will be as kludgy as the heat system (which I dont hate but think it not very elegant or intuitive), maybe it will be better. Instead of going off half cocked, why dont you want and see?

Oh! so you decided to speak! Thank you. And that is my point. THERE IS NO CONVERGENCE SYSTEM IN PLACE.

Is there supposed to be? Based on your updated comment and Homeless Bill's actual intelligent comment, I assume PGI said somewhere that convergence will come into play sometime in the future when they figure out how to actually make Cryengine 3 work as well as game engines 10 years older? Including Advanced Zoom and SLI support, and having more than 24 players in a match, and etc....

If so great. Then why not state as much.

PGI: "Hey, we realize that heat modified penalties are not the best solution, and dy-syncing (force chain fire) weapons really breaks canon and advanced zoom (picture in picture) in Cryengine 3 breaks ...well, the engine...these are only temporary and once we figure out how to fix HSR and hitboxes we will implement true weapons convergence and actually make the pilot skill useful and then at that time will undo all the horrible fixes we have put in place to account for the lack of either the game engine or our experience with it."

Was that so hard?

Taemien, on 13 August 2013 - 10:31 AM, said:

Alpha strike is not being removed from the game. You can still load up all weapons into a single firing group, get up in someone's face and ruin their day. Its supposed to be a last ditch effort to destroy an opponent.

It was never meant to be done over and over and over. This is an abuse of customized mechs that translated from TT, which is also why I limit my games in TT to be stock only.

So they are just hurting boating builds. Which with the hardpoint system, are gimped builds anyway. It forces players to configure their mechs and play in a smarter way. And because mechs will be of more mixed loadouts, there won't be any cookie cutter builds, or at least a reduction in their must have quality.



Convergence isn't possible. Read the other QnAs. Hit detection is done via the server. Hit detection with convergence (a relatively unpredictable thing by the server to client and vice versa) causes unpredictable desynchs and a myriad of other issues (blame CryEngine netcode if you want to blame something). They may be able to remedy this, but it would take an overhaul of the entire system, an overhaul they just don't have time to do.

In otherwords don't hold your breath for this in MWO. Perhaps MW5 or MW6 will have it. What we have for convergence is what is here to stay. We'll probably see LAMs, Quads, and HAGs before convergence changes. By then we'll be playing MW7.

Thank you for that. I will look into that and read it.

Rasako, on 13 August 2013 - 10:32 AM, said:

this is just an all-time low of manchildish behavior, when are you people just going to grow the hell up?

i'm sorry? Who the heck are you directing that comment to? What man-child?

I'm trying to understand why the weird fixes; instead of addressing the problem head on. Only looking for answers, sir. Not mindless retorts from folks who have nothing to contribute to the discussion. Please move to another thread unless you have some links, knowledge or advice on this issue.

Grow up?

What does "grow up" even mean in regards to this topic? That I should accept that fact that it's broken and just be happy? LOL. I have been here playing and posting for over a year and have been a staunch defender of ALL THAT IS PGI. Good and bad. But this "de-syncing" issue made me see the emperor has no clothes. So, tell me exactly what is the "grown up" position on current game mechanics and weapon balance?

I eagerly await your reply.

Edited by BlackWidow, 13 August 2013 - 10:41 AM.

[DaZur]

IMHO...

The sooner PGI resigns to the fact that you cannot create linear balance out of a chance pen/paper source material that in and of itself is not balanced, the sooner they could theoretically move forward with their original pillar tenants.

Ya can't put a square block into a round hole unless you heavily modify it... Problem is now it's no longer a square block...

There is way too much mixing of TT / cannon and the core requirements for a competitive environment. Too many concessions... too many arbitrary number manipulation in an effort to provide a product that theoretically addresses all and in doing so disenfranchises them instead.

PGI needs to put their foot down, make a decisive decision one way or the other and forge ahead and stop waffling in an attempt to placate everyone.

Edited by DaZur, 13 August 2013 - 10:41 AM.

[D A T A]

I TOTALLY AGREE WITH BLACK WIDOW, i add that it is insane to remove the ppc+ppc+gauss Alpha from the game, i played mw3, mw 3 pirates moon, mw 4 vengeance, black knight, mercenaries and mektek: no Alpha strike ( big boomer Alpha strike of similar weapons) = no MechWarrior, but riddicolous game for noobs that are not able to aim a shot and want to have a continuous fire of different weapons, running in circles like idiots. In my opinion i should be allowed to use back my ctf 1x with 3 ppc + 1 gauss+ 2 small lasers. 6 ppc is an exploit, ok, but 3 no.

[TOGSolid]

If they can't change the aiming mechanics then just change how the weapons work. Make the Autocannons shoot a burst of gunfire. Make the SRMs shoot out in a stream like in MW4. Make LRMs do the same thing. Make PPCs shoot the energy equivalent of a burst, just make it visually a big oval blob of plasma that functions mechanically like a burst of gunfire. The Gauss will be a bit tricky but it probably won't be a big deal if it fired twice as fast but did half damage, thus giving a weapon that did pinpoint damage but still gets the DoT conversion treatment.

Tadaa. No more instant, pinpoint, alpha striking nonsense and the entire issue just goes away. Even better, both the purists and the guys who don't give a damn will be happy. The guys who love the video game aspect get to keep playing with pinpoint weapons that promote proper target tracking and all that in a predictable manner and the purists get a translated form of TTs inherent innaccuracy.

EDIT: Even more awesome, hacking is almost impossible with all of this because only the Gauss will work like the other weapons used to and even that will require very consistent aim and not allow for rapid coring. Torso twisting will be able to defeat it.

Edited by TOGSolid, 13 August 2013 - 10:59 AM.

[BlackWidow]

DaZur, on 13 August 2013 - 10:40 AM, said:

IMHO...

The sooner PGI resigns to the fact that you cannot create linear balance out of a chance pen/paper source material that in and of itself is not balanced, the sooner they could theoretically move forward with their original pillar tenants.

Ya can't put a square block into a round hole unless you heavily modify it... Problem is now it's no longer a square block...

There is way too much mixing of TT / cannon and the core requirements for a competitive environment. Too many concessions... too many arbitrary number manipulation in an effort to provide a product that theoretically addresses all and in doing so disenfranchises them instead.

PGI needs to put their foot down, make a decisive decision one way or the other and forge ahead and stop waffling in an attempt to placate everyone.

When PGI originally stated TT as basis...I thought YEAH! Then I thought...blerg...it'll never work. Balance hell.

Is it really that simple? I'm really can't tell if I'm intellectually or emotionally blind to this.

I.e. Is my solution a desperate attempt to hold on to alpha strike (but balanced) capability when there is no real reason not to simply let it go.....

I mean, I see a point. As long as we have the mechs and weapons we love.....everything else from TT can be scrapped in the name of balanced, and more importantly, fun game play?

It's hard to tell at this point. Part of it may be that, but mostly it's the frustration that it's 2013 for crying out loud, and we have to choose between either having a really fun game with cool features or having one where client can't be hacked.

Sad.

And as always, DaZur...your post bring order to my chaos.

Edited by BlackWidow, 13 August 2013 - 11:00 AM.

[FatBabyThompkins]

DaZur, on 13 August 2013 - 10:40 AM, said:

IMHO...

The sooner PGI resigns to the fact that you cannot create linear balance out of a chance pen/paper source material that in and of itself is not balanced, the sooner they could theoretically move forward with their original pillar tenants.

Ya can't put a square block into a round hole unless you heavily modify it... Problem is now it's no longer a square block...

There is way too much mixing of TT / cannon and the core requirements for a competitive environment. Too many concessions... too many arbitrary number manipulation in an effort to provide a product that theoretically addresses all and in doing so disenfranchises them instead.

PGI needs to put their foot down, make a decisive decision one way or the other and forge ahead and stop waffling in an attempt to placate everyone.

Agreed 100%. The hybrid system we've grown into is becoming increasingly difficult to balance while still keeping fun an up most priority. Creating a desync system is an n(n-1)/2, O(n²) for you computer nerds, problem. The more weapons you create, the more balancing you need to perform each time.

[BlackWidow]

TOGSolid, on 13 August 2013 - 10:52 AM, said:

If they can't change the aiming mechanics then just change how the weapons work. Make the Autocannons shoot a burst of gunfire. Make the SRMs shoot out in a stream like in MW4. Make LRMs do the same thing. Make PPCs shoot the energy equivalent of a burst, just make it visually a big oval blob of plasma that functions mechanically like a burst of gunfire. The Gauss will be a bit tricky but it probably won't be a big deal if fired twice as fast but did half damage, thus giving a weapon that did pinpoint damage but still gets the DoT conversion treatment.

Tadaa. No more instant, pinpoint, alpha striking nonsense and the entire issue just goes away. Even better, both the purists and the guys who don't give a damn will be happy. The guys who love the video game aspect get to keep playing with pinpoint weapons that promote proper target tracking and all that in a predictable manner and the purists get a translated form of TTs inherent innaccuracy.
EDIT: Even more awesome, hacking is almost impossible with all of this because only the Gauss will work like the other weapons used to and even that will require very consistent aim and not allow for rapid coring. Torso twisting will be able to defeat it.

Wow. Great suggestion! Even more simple to execute than mine! Not sure everyone would love this but keep thinking outside the box!

[Trauglodyte]

PGI has already said that they're limited, currently, in their ability to change how convergence works. They've also said that they're happy with player creativity when it comes to mech designs. So, by way of code restrictions and game leniency, they've resigned themselves to what the game currently is. Because of this, they're working on the back side of the game to try to limit the wild fire that is sweeing the community. Nobody, not them and not us, wants a world where you turn a corner and get decimated by one pull of the trigger. They can't/won't do it the way some of us want so they're doing it another way.

Here is the kicker: the changes that they're making aren't written in stone. There is no guarantee that, once they implement gradual heat penalties, that the ghost heat will stay. And there is no guarantee that, once convergence is addressed, that desyncing will stay. As was said, you - OP - are jumpin up and down over something that hasn't even been added to the game. Take a step back and cool down.

[Shae Starfyre]

What I got out of it, was this sliver of time it takes to converge; feels like we have that now.

Torso and Arms do not instantly converge, it takes a sliver of time. I do not see how this will eliminate pin-point damage; a good pilot will adjust as quickly as the convergence allows, which they do now.

I have, however, no comment on this de-sync issue; is there a link to more info or is it such that you cannot link the weapons anymore creating a two salvo event, what?

[Corvus Antaka]

i am not fond of this idea, it sounds like gauss or ppc is getting a charge time. this is going to really hurt single ppc/gauss users, while doing little to hurt dual ppc gauss users.

id rather see dual ppc combos take more heat and link gauss to the ppc.

Edited by Colonel Pada Vinson, 13 August 2013 - 11:06 AM.